Entrevista com o Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck

Entrevista com o Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck

Entrevistamos o Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck na sala do PET, para que ele nos contasse um pouquinho sobre tecnologia social, que tem algumas semelhanças com seu trabalho de Design Thinging.

O Prof. Reinhold é um pesquisador do Center for Design Research da Stanford University e veio para o Brasil como professor convidado, para ser o co-diretor do Laboratório de Design, Inovação e Criatividade (d-USP Leste), você pode conhecer mais sobre o d-USP Leste clicando aqui.

A entrevista foi feita no dia 04 de julho de 2011 e está (em grande parte) em inglês.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: And about this program (d-USPLeste)… Is it working? The community is inside the university working together with the students, and the students are going into the community and are working there?


Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck.: It hasn’t worked as well as I was hoping to, and I think there are a lot of reasons why it has been very difficult to bring these different groups together. My Teaching Assistant and I went out into the community to identify groups that would  work with us and share some of the key challenges that they are facing in the community. And it was difficult, there was a little bit of a suspicion…Especially since I was an outsider   some academic from Stanford University in California… ”What does he know? What does he want to do here?”… But anyway, so there was a little bit of trust building that we were able to do, and we got some community groups that were interested and willing to work together with us as part of this “Curso de Difusão”. I would’ve liked to see more projects coming from the community with stronger participation from the community. We just established the Laboratório de Design, Inovação e Criatividade this year, and this was the first time we implemented the course, and hopefully we, USP and EACH, will be able to create a better process to build the trust necessary to really bring these different groups together. Maybe, maybe the groups should not come together here at EACH, maybe they should come together in the community. Maybe they should alternate, so there are a lot of opportunities that we can explore. I think it was a good first try to engage students and professors from different disciplines in problems that were initiated more by the community, and I think there are plenty of opportunities to do a better job.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: But I think that you have. You are having a big experience with this project here? Is it different for you? Is it different from similar projects in Chile? Is it different from Colombia? Is it more difficult here or not?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: Ah, that’s a good question, that’s a good question. It’s hard for me to make comparison.  Let me go back a little bit and set the larger context …

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: It is difficult to answer this question…

Prof.. Reinhold Steinbeck: Each university, pretty much in every country, has at least three goals or responsibilities: One is to teach the next generation of students – that’s teaching; the second role is to do research; and, the third role is to work with the the surrounding community. I’m pretty sure that these three roles are also the roles that Brazilian universities play. It’s my impression that Brazilian universities are more isolated than universities in the US. At Stanford, which is a  very expensive private university they are doing a pretty good job in reaching out to the immediate community, but also to the large community. And, they are also bridging research and teaching to make it more like a integrated activity. In terms of teaching, in the United States, we have also service learning programs and I think you have those here too, where students work on projects that connect them with the community. And in terms of research, US universities work very close with companies and organizations, which is a great way to bridge theroy and practice. I have the impression that universities here in Brazil, and maybe USP in particular, could probably benefit more by reaching out to the surrounding communities, including companies, community-based organizations, etc.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: I think that the university here in Brazil is isolated, we have some difficulty to interact with the community and with the companies.

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: Exactly, it’s the same in other Latin American countries, and I think it might have something to do – I’m not an international education expert – with the fact that universities here are still following a much more traditional role in education, but I think it’s changing.


Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: I think one core aspect of this idea of creating this “Laboratório de Design, Inovação e Criatividade” and bring together students, professors and members from the community is the notion that the best way to come up with creative solutions is to include the community and not just design for them, which traditionally it has been the case with research in academia, but to design with them. I think that a lot of processes, ideas and solutions have already been applied in an informal way in communities but have not been recognized by the traditional academic community as solutions. And the other import aspect of this laboratório and the methodology of design thinking is the emphasis on doing. Rather than sitting in your classroom or sitting in your office at the university and thinking about solutions, the idea is that you go out and you do things, you listen to the community, you understand them and together you create solutions and you emphasize the doing aspect rather than the thinking aspect, so you really try to be an anthropologist and you work with the community. You try to understand them, and then together you build a series of prototypes, where you try things out, and then you try them out again and you see if they have a positive impact or not, and then if they don’t, you have to go back and improve your prototype. This iterative design process is not unfamiliar in the field of engineering, especially software enfineering, but in many others disciplines it is not a very common process. And expanding this creative, iterative, collaborative and human- and user-centered design process across other disciplines is exactly the goal of d-USPLeste and design thinking.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: When I heard about the design thinking program or Projeto D-USPLeste I made the association between the program and this idea of social technology because the relationship between academic and society. But when they (our students) were studying about social technology they found some information that for me sounded strange. For example, the ‘soro caseiro’, the solution with salt and sugar, a solution to dehydration, created by the society … driven by popular knowledge, is now a familiar concept throughout society (all people know about it and how it is made, etc); and over time, the academic community approved that the ‘soro caseiro’ works – so it is a “social technology”;

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: We don’t understand the relationship between, for example, business, or social business, and social technology? Because, here in Brazil, social technology does not produce “patents”.


Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Patent. And we think that the companies, many companies, would like to make money with this and they couldn’t. Rigth?

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: “They can’t” meaning: they are not allowed to, there is a law? Or they, they don’t see…

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: They can, they can make money, they can gain some profits, but it’s not right, I think, because this is social technology, this is…

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: Public domain.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Public domain. And how can the companies explore this?

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: They say that it’s different from community to community. Here, the solution is one, but in other community the solution can be another. The community itself is going to find the right solution, a solution that they can get money. How can business use a social technology?

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Or produce social technology. What is the link?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: I don’t know the details, but Brazil is very active in the whole open source movement, in the technology field, but also in other areas. There is a big foundation in San Francisco Bay Area, the Hewlett Foundation, which was established by the founders of Hewlett-Packard (HP). One of the programs of that foundation is to support open source programs, but not only software programs, but also, for example, they have a big program called O.E.R. – Open Education Resources –, where every lecture, every activity at the university is open, and can be used by everyone. It cannot just benefit one particular organization. For example, at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology), they have all their lectures online, and every university, in Africa, or in Asia, or in Latin America, can use them. But no organization can say, “I’m going to use that and I’m going to say it’s mine”. So, coming back to your question, “how can communities benefit from the social technology?”, maybe the open source approach could be one way to do that.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: For example, if one group, as part of the design thinking program at d-USPLeste, creates a new product with the community, how could you produce that product at scale?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: I can share two examples of student projects that were developed in a class, similar to what we had here, at Stanford’s d.school (Institute of Design at Stanford University). One group of students was working with poor rural communities. They developed a new water irrigation system for farms in East Africa which uses very little water and  increased the harvest of crops, which, in return, gave farmers more income. This student group formed their own for-profit company and they are now attracting investment from social investors, and maybe even from traditional investment companies, because they’ve seen an opportunity to make a profit with this product. They are building this project into a for-profit company with a strong social coproate responsibility aspect. Another group of students, from the same class, visited communities in India and realized that a lot of members of these communities had respiratory problems, and the reason why they had a very high rate of respiratory problems was because they use kerosene lanterns for household lighting. So, that particular student team decided that one way to address that problem was to design a high quality, inexpensive, solar-rechargeable LED light which allowed families to very rapidly and safely charge their lamp’s battery, and then provide many hours of bright and clean light. They decided to create a non-profit foundation, so is different organizing principle to achieve. They wanted to achieve the same thing, which is to build an organization and create a mechanism to produce more of the lights, which would automatically reduce the price and have a larger impact. And that is one of the big question that is being explored in the field of social entrepreneurship.

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: How can you have the biggest impact by applying traditional free-market principles, supply and demand, or would you have a bigger impact by creating foundations with an explicit social impact agenda. I think that is the big discussion going on right now.


Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: More or less. When we talk about open source, about software open source I think that the methodology, the principle of open source, is very good but, the product is free, the source of this product (or software) is free but the service, the support for this software is not free, right?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: Right.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Right, so you have a part of this methodology, of this philosophy, that’s untrue and I think that’s necessary because we need to work and make money to live and buy the things, the food, the house and so on, and I think that social technology like “soro caseiro” or other product, other service, will need some support in some time, I don’t know. It’s difficult for me because this concept is very new …

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Do you know “cistern”, like a tank for water?

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: Yes.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: We don’t need an engineering process to build the “cisterna”, I can build a “cistern”, with my hands.

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: Meaning community-built?

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: Yeah, the problem is inform the community saying: “it’s the solution, this solution is not so hard, you can do it, you can share the solution in a easy way with everyone”, the “soro caseiro” is easy because it’s sugar water and salt, everyone has this in their house? Cisternas is much harder, it is necessary to read a project instructions and construct your cisterna.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: (In this part we spoke in Portuguese) Você quer dizer que a cisterna é mais fácil comprar do que fazer?

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: Não, eu li que é dito para as pessoas que elas devem fazer um projeto para construir a sua cisterna.

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: É mais difícil?

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: Não, o que se quer que aconteça é que não seja “dado” uma cisterna pra pessoa, e sim que esta pessoa construa a sua cisterna, do seu jeito. O que é dito ser difícil é como fazer com que esse conhecimento (de como fazer a cisterna) se espalhe, de modo que cada pessoa saiba como fazer a sua cisterna.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: O projeto existe, mas as pessoas não conhecem.

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: Isso, por exemplo.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Do you understand?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: So the project of building a cistern is…

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: The intention is to propose products that the people can build themselves, but the people, in general, do not have knowledge about this products and the challenge is how to teach the people about these products.

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: The example you gave … from… (In this part we spoke in Portugues) No exemplo das plantações, li que existe um caso em que um senhor tinha um sistema de irrigação que ele construiu. Então, o filho dele percebeu que o pai fazia uma coisa que muitos agrônomos não sabiam fazer ou não faziam por algum outro motivo, e por isso, desperdiçavam água. Então ele pensou: “meu pai sabe fazer um sistema de irrigação, seria bom fazer uma campanha para divulgar esse conhecimento. Isso também é considerado tecnologia social.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Isso é tecnologia social.

Prof.. Reinhold Steinbeck: So are you talking about the irrigation?

Barbara Barbosa Claudino da Silva: Yes.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: The simple man had an idea and his son said “we need to broadcast this idea for the other people”. This is social technology?

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: Right, but again I’m not an expert in social enterprises and how to increase the impact of social enterprises but what I do know is that, as we say in English, the verdict is still out there, whether you have a large impact if you try to making something available for free, with maybe some service support. Or whether you set up a market system with distribution and profit and based on demand and supply. There is a good example and I’ll try to find it, I’m vaguely remembering, where they tried to distribute mosquito nets in Africa, and they provided those initially for free and it didn’t work. And then they supported a local business that produces mosquito nets and they charge a small price, and then, more people actually used it! So, again… I’m starting to understand the social technology aspect but, if your ulitmate goal is to have the largest possible impact on more people, for a solution that benefits society then I’m not sure which approach is more effective in achieving that goal.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: (In this part we spoke in Portugues) Interessante isso, não é?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: And the other thing is: there are solutions already out there that are very effective, maybe even “low tech”, but they have not been recognized as solutions to address other challenges. So, what kind of mechanism or infrastructure or framework do you need in order to use that solution and have a large impact? So, I think that are two things. One: develop new solutions together that will automatically benefit more people and have a strong impact; or using existing solutions in the communities that have been very effective, but have not been used outside that small community.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Reinhold, do you know about the concept of “business incubator”? Do you know this term: “business incubator”? Do you know that here, at EACH, we’ll have a “social business incubator”?

Prof. Dr. Reinhold Steinbeck: Yes, I know this term, and I heard different terminologies… I heard “Social Technology Incubator”.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Do you think that the d-USPLeste lab can have the potential to establish a link with this program, with the “Social Technology Incubator”?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: Yes, I have been participating in meetings with the Administration of EACH; and I have shared a vision for that with them. We’ll see how it goes. When we think about an Incubator in general, what is absolutely crucial for the Incubator is the culture; and I would hope that the culture in an Incubator here at EACH is open, collaborative, creative. I visited two Incubators at other universities here in the State of São Paulo. One of these Incubators was a building with offices and closed doors… And that’s not a promising approach,  because if you think about an Incubator supporting the creative generation of ideas, you have to open up the process and the building. The other major element of an Incubator, especially if you call it “Social Incubator” is participation; you have to include the community in the design of the Incubator from the very beginning.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: I think that this is the model to bring up the society for the Incubator. But the model is to form, to build a new business, a new company, something that can make money for the development of the region. And this model of social technology versus Incubator and make money, make profit is very difficult to combine. I think that it’s possible and I hope this combination will happen here, but I don’t know how! We need to wait!

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: So, just to finish what I was trying to say. If you talk about the Social Incubator, I would really emphasize the kind of culture you want to build in that organization. And, yes! I do think that “design thinking” and the creativity, the human-centered aspect, the collaborative aspect, all these mindsets that are emphasized in this methodology of “design thinking”; I feel that they should play a very strong role in the Incubator. So, I would hope that in the building, in the organization, that the d-USPLeste would have a role to play. And I proposed that to the administration! I also feel that there needs to be a continuum if you think about the whole process of innovation and impact. What we are trying to do with the d-USPLeste is to bring together the students, the professors and the community, and engage them in a process were they learn about certain techniques to help them come up with creative solutions. I would hope that if we have eight teams each semester, that the top three teams that come up with the most innovative proposals, either a product, or a service, or a policy, would then move into the incubator. So that you have d-USPLeste as the generation or the initial creation of an idea and a project, and then they move into the incubator building and organization where they get additional support to help them move the idea that they had into a real solution, a real product, a real service. What exactly might be happening in the Incubadora I don’t know, it could be coaching, or facilitating where the teams continue to work with faculty who have expertise in marketing but where they also work very closely with successful entrepreneurs.

This is something else that I have shared with the Administration, but also with the students at the USP, and it is called the Global Social Benefit Incubator (GSBI), a program at the University of Santa Clara in Silicon Valley, which is the oldest university in Silicon Valley, so they are very close to the innovation energy in Silicon Valley. I asked the director of this Global Social Benefit Incubator to share with the d-USPLeste students the GSBI program. The GSBI is an incubator  program which helps social entrepreneurs, meaning entrepreneurs that have a very strong social benefit mission, it helps them to create business plans to improve the business practices including marketing and finances to automatically multiply there the impact that they have. So instead of reaching a hundred farmers in Africa, the GSBI works with social entrepreneurs work and gives them the techniques, the tools, the knowledge and the skills they need in order to reach tens of thousands of farmers. It’s a program that has a residential component where  about 20 social entrepreneurs from around the world are invited to spend three weeks at the University of Santa Clara to go through a program, a very intensive program. It’s based at the Center of Science, Technology and Society and brings together core academic science, technology but also society. During the initial  application phase there is a lot of online mentoring, and then there is a three week in a residence phase where the social entrepreneurs spend time at the university where they have workshops where very successful entrepreneurs from Silicon Valley work with them and share their experiences  about how to build an idea into a business, and they work with professors from the business school to think about how to create a business plan to in order to grow their enterprises. That’s three weeks, and then, after the residential period, which is actually happening  right now in August, they participate in an accelerated program which is also online and where they continue coaching support from professors and successful entrepreneurs from Silicon Valley.

The GSBI program is funded in part by Skoll Foundation, which is the largest foundation to support social entrepreneurs. It was started by Jeff Skoll who started eBay, a big company. The GSBI program is looking for a partner in South America to work with them on the idea of building a global social benefit entrepreneurs network. I also proposed to the Administration of EACH it would be good to connect with the GSBI network.

Here are some examples of social entrepreneurs that participated in the GSBI program. The first examples is of an organization that developed an education radio program. It uses radio for lectures, since in many older schools in  Africa or India, teachers might not show up or might know only little about the subject they teach.  After participating in the GSBI program, this social entrepreneur has gone from having four thousand people listening to his program to 21 million listeners in nine countries. So that is quite an increase of impact.

The second example is about a social entrepreneur who built a pedal pump for irrigation for small farmers in Africa. Before attending the Global Social Benefit Incubator program they sold five thousands pumps, and now they are selling one million pumps. And again it’s because the social entrepreneur was learning addition skills about how to run a business and increase the impact.

I’m very excited about this opportunity that you have here on campus with the social technology incubator. I think it will be incredibly interesting and challenging to figure out how that incubator can connect to social technology and I think there is opportunity to also combine that with what we have started with the first prototype of this course and really have the design-thinking course and  d-USPLeste be part of the Incubator. And all of these parts would have to be community centered.

The patents, that’s a question I don’t know how to address. There is an organization called Creative Commons, and it’s open source licensing. Creative Commons was started by Lawrence Lessig, a professor at Stanford, and is headquartered in San Francisco. They have worked on this idea of creating a framework that keeps projects open while, at the same time, also makes sure that people get credit for what they created. So, Creative Commons is probably something that fits the question of patents.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: This question, patents, in Brazil is very delicate. We don’t have here patents for software. We can’t obtain a patent for softwares here.

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: So, what happens is that… You go to do the US?

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Yes, or we can ask the patent in the United States or Japan. I think that Japan is possible, but our model is similar to European model. We don’t have patents. We can ask a registry, something like an “intellectual property”, just it. So, we don’t have patent for software, we don’t have patent for other things. For example, music, theaters, some things like these. We have patent for process and for products, but not software. I think that this question is very delicate here, because one part of the society would like that the patent would be possible here and other part doesn’t want this question here. So, I don’t know about social technology and about the social pieces, or social companies, I don’t know anything about this, but I think it’s very delicate here. I think that, I don’t know, but maybe in the United States it’s simpler.

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: I don’t know. The process of applying for a patent or intellectual property in general…

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: Not the process for applying, but I don’t understand the culture around the patents, I think that the patent here, something is a taboo.

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: Yeah, because the culture here in Brazil is very much a culture of community and openness, more so than in the United States, for example.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: I don’t know, but, for example in the pharmacy industry we have here the “genéricos” and this program was very difficult to input here because of the patent maybe because the patents of the pharmacy industry European or American, and the Brazilian pharmacy industry has some problems with this too. I think that, this line of working is the same things of the social technology, is the same purpose of social technology, to make something more accessible for the community in general. But we need to study more about this to discuss something more sustainable about this. So, I think that we have curiosities, maybe, the last question is about your impressions: about us, about Stanford, about our music…

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: I can tell you what I just told a dear friend mine. I think I’ve been here now for almost eight months and I told my dear friend, yesterday I said, “I think I’m falling in love with Brazil, it took me eight months”, and then he asked me, “Why so long?”, and I said, “Well, I just, I was too busy and too exhausted up to now. I’ve really struggled with the bureaucracy here in Brazil and, on a personal level, just getting my work permit, and my bank account and my CPF. And it is more difficult for someone who doesn’t speak the language very well. So I felt like “Ok, I don’t understand what are you saying?”, but even if I understood what they were saying, I still think it’s a process that doesn’t make it easy to really do a lot of a things that I think we’re talking about. To start new businesses and ideas in really solve problems and it’s a challenge. So that is my impression and now, because I have all my papers and my cards and everything, I can actually enjoy just being in this culture. Every university, every organization has its own version of bureaucracy. There are good aspects to bureaucracy; you need to have some kind of framework and system to support larger organizations. I certainly am very familiar with the university culture and bureaucracy, like at Stanford, we have it, no question about it, but if you want to do things at Stanford, if you have good ideas, you figure it out and do it. It’s much more difficult here to do that. It’s not easy to have an idea and then just do it. Sometimes there are reasons why it might have moved forward very quickly and sometimes I just felt like the only reason why it’s not moving forward is a bureaucracy reason which really doesn’t make sense.

Profa. Dra. Sarajane Marques Peres: And how about our students?

Prof. Reinhold Steinbeck: I really enjoyed working with the students in my course. They were very eager, very curious, and many of them embrace the idea of working in teams on projects and with the community. Having said that, I also noticed here in Brazil, as I have noticed in other countries including Chile, Colombia or Germany that it’s hard to change the teaching culture of a university so that students take more responsibility for their own learning, so that they don’t just have this expectation: you tell me what I need to know and I will take notes, and then I’ll let you know what I know at the end. I still found here as I have in other places that I had weekly seminars with some mini lectures and I tried to make sure that the participants understood that these weekly seminars and these mini lectures, that those are not the most important parts of this course. The most important part is that they go out and work, in a team, on a project. So this kind of culture, it’s much better here at USP LESTE, because you already have a project-based learning culture, a kind of other history, but I still think there are wonderful opportunities to make that culture even stronger and really have the students take the responsibility for the learning.

It also means that the professors need to re-evaluate what is the most powerful role that I can plain in order to have students leave the university with the skills and knowledge they need, in order to become active participants in whatever field they want to be active. So really focus more on teaching students how to learn, because it’s changing continuously, rapidly. When you start, in year one at EACH, or at USP, and you leave four years later, what you learn during the first year might have changed completely by the time you leave. So that means that more so than ever before will you need to focus on things like: critical thinking skills, creative problem-solving.

The third part that you are doing a pretty good job here, but also is incredibly important, is: the whole notion of knowing how to work in teams. It’s very difficult. I still remember one of the projects I did at Stanford, it was with the program in human biology, a large lecture class, and the faculty member, the professor who taught it was the president of the university, a very important person and a wonderful person. We changed this large lecture class, where we had three hundred students, usually just listening to lectures twice a week. We changed that structure, we created small seminar groups and we also developed a web based system where students have to do weekly problems sets. The web based system was structured in a way that they combined multiple choices with open-ended rational. So, multiple choices allow you to give simple quick answers to questions and if you use technology, it also allows you to do quick analyses. But it doesn’t say a lot about what is going on in the students’ mind, in terms of did he or she understand this or not. We actually asked the students, “Here are the questions, here are the four options, why did you choose A, B, C or D?”. The web based system allowed the instructor very quickly to see, seventy-five percent of students didn’t select the correct answer and then, because it’s a web based, you could zoom in to a small seminar group and could actually look at twenty students and you could say, “Ok, these ten students didn’t really understand the concept. That means I need to go over that concept again”. It also helped the faculty member to get some feedback on how to improve teaching.

So, the professor in this course, the president of the Stanford University, he said, at the end, when we did the evaluation: “our students are smart; they really know how to do research. One thing they don’t know is how to work in groups.” And, if you think about life, 75% of what the people do outside of the university is you have to work in teams, and more so now than ever before, you have to work in teams or you have people of different disciplines. You have to be able to understand chemistry; you have to be able to understand the language of the engineering. So, interdisciplinary collaboration is also working. And, the other aspect is that more and more, people work in global teams. Now you have global  design teams and they work around the clock and you have teams at General Motors for example who work with, research scientists in Germany, in England, in Detroit, and in Tokyo.